Plato who is famous for his Platonic dialog or discussion approach to philosophy had much to say about art and aesthetics. His views were a mixture of admiration for the arts and serious concerns about the misuse and abuse of the imagination in the practice of the artistic life.
Much of what Plato worried about continues to surface in our own era even though many of contemporary critics know little about Plato. The reason for the on-going concern about the arts has to do with the impact of the arts on society when this influence seems negative as in the case of violence films and games which seem to dull the moral restraint of troubled people.
Here are some of Plato's ideas and issues:
1. Art is mainly skill, clever manipulation of paint or stone or in our era the film or digital media. 2. Sometimes the artist is much more than skillful and may be wise and able to say something of value through the arts which makes it more than skill alone. 3. Art is at its worse nothing more than a mirror of reality, passive and unmediated sense experience alone. 4. At its very worse art is fantasy and can corrupt the logical operations of the mind. 5. Music of all the art forms moves most directly out of the soul and follows the souls inner rhythms it therefore can calm the soul if the motions are complementary to the operations of the soul and has a beneficial influence on society at large if more Classical in nature. 6. Art's whole apparatus can, under ideal circumstances, serve a moral purpose for society if made by wise and moral makers. 7. BEAUTY is the realization of the visits of the Divine on humanity. 8. BEAUTY, LIGHT, MEASURE AND PROPORTION are observable in NATURE and point to a Divine maker and like good music move the soul to balance and joy. 9. In summation art may be poor philosophy according to many thinkers but philosophy at its best is excellent art. . . this apparent contradiction shows that art is powerful and not easily understood or easily dismissed by even one of humankind's greatest minds, namely Plato.
Bill
31 comments:
i think the majority of artists would find platos ideas at least interesting even if they dont agree with it. i find it disappointing that even in this era art is so easily dismissed. art, music and film will continue to affect, possibly even help heal individuals if one looks at art or music therapy and how it has assisted ones in need
The idea that fantasy to could lead people so far astray as to cause moral issues is interesting, it's like the opposite of art therapy-people so unbalanced that they can't separate fantasy from reality and it causes some kind of misbehavior. I know of a few people who are so afraid of this kind of problem that they don't allow their children to experience any kind of fantasy stories, including Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy. I don't believe that fantasy leads to immorality or destruction of reality for any but the most unbalanced of minds, for most people it's simply a way to explore the limits of an idea.
I agree with the majority of Plato's ideas about art, but I have to agree that I don't agree that fantasy can corrupt the logical operations of the mind. Imagination is important, not only to help us escape and take a "mental break" from reality, but also because it teaches us to explore different options and ideas in order to problem solve.
Art can be manipulated into many different forms and be used to help people as well. Art is a form of one's imagination going wild. Many of the products that have been developed today have been designed or constructed by what I would like to believe are artists. Art can extend in a variety of different ways and people truly underestimate the power of art. Plato seemed like he was very interested in this exact matter and how it can be manipulated to be used for a variety of different things.
"good music move the soul to balance and joy." I really enjoyed plato's views on music. No matter what music preference you have, music does a beneficial influence on society and does help us express things with sound rather than words or pictures.
I think that art, especially controversial fantasy art, can take on a form of therapy for people who may have socially unacceptable impulses. I've grown up with people thinking that the plight of youth culture was because of violence in video games and cursing in music. I think that how far one lets these types of art manifest within one's actions is up to the individual and their restraint.
I agree with Natalie about music. Music definitely plays a strong psychological role on the listener. I find that music helps put me into a meditative state,where I am able to gain my best focus.
I never read any of Plato's interpretation on art, but I really have to disagree with the summary of his views. I don't think that depicting something just as it is in nature the worst that art can become. The single brick that Odd Nedrum painted are nothing more than a brick as it looks. but the conscious effort to focus on this part of nature by an intelligent being transcended the object to a higher state because of the artists spirit has manifested itself onto the image. I do agree with Plato that not just any artist can do this, it does take someone who is wise and adept at conveying their deep insights. I also have to agree that straying into fantasy is a very slippery course that lulls an observer away from nature, beauty and even God. I dont think i could think of something more beautiful than a conscious mind that is present in the moment of reality that nature provides.
FIKRIYE OZMERAL-GIBSON
I am quite intrigued with that plato had to say about art , also after reading this in the blog I have went a little further and did some reading about his essays on his book the republic . One of his most famous arguments he compared the arts and the experience of arts to be the shadows on the wall in his cave argument ( There Plato asks readers to imagine prisoners chained to a bench, facing the wall of a deep cave. Behind them is a six-foot wall, behind that a fire, and in between the fire and the wall walk actors carrying puppets on sticks. All the prisoners can see are the shadows cast by the puppets. That is their world, and they think it Reality. Imagine that a prisoner is somehow released. At first he or she will stumble in the dark, and be blinded by the fire, but then come to realize that the shadows are copies of the puppets. The liberated prisoner stumbles further up, all the way out the mouth of the cave and into the sunlight. There, when the sunblindness goes away, the prisoner sees the real things of which the puppets themselves are copies. Finally, he or she is able to see the sun, by whose light the real things are visible.)
Even tough he found arts to be a critical component in the education of young minds he also thought of arts to be something that should be censored. He believed arts be to the imitation of the real thing therefore a dangerous delusion in the human experience. I do agree the part of art imitating reality yet I find myself questioning as far as why he did not gave more credit to the artists and their experience of life and to be able to see "it" for themselves . I am also aware of his attitude towards total freedom which he was against . i found him to be very conservative in the end .
FIKRIYE OZMERAL-GIBSON
I agree music and art can be beneficial to the audience. However anything that can be beneficial also has the power to be harmful. I notice that if I listen to certain music such as intense video game music as I am trying to drive, I tend to get aggravated and may even act more aggressive. This music was intended to heighten adrenalin and make you feel like you must kill the enemy. When I listen to softer music I feel more at ease and almost feel like the world is in tune and everyone is beautiful.
If one chooses to surround themselves with art that only displays the ugliness of the world I feel they would not look at a beautiful sunset and feel peace. They would call upon the images they hold dear and project the arts message onto the beauty of the world and curse the sunset. I feel that if one chooses to be surrounded by dark art, because they feel it is cool or what art should be, they would have a harder time relating to beautiful things presented to them in their lives.
Lara McLaughlin
I enjoyed reading Platos opinions and at the same time was reading up on Neo Rauch, I felt this quote on his process had some relevance on his passion of painting.
"I view the process of painting as an extraordinarily natural form of discovering the world, almost natural as breathing. Outwardly it is almost entirely without intention. It is predominantly limited to the process of a concentrated flow. I am deliberately neglecting to contemplate all of the catalytic influences that would have the power to undermine the innocence of this approach because I would like to express a degree of clarity in these lines by way of example. I view myself as a kind of peristaltic filtration system in the river of time".
A lot of Plato's arguments feel to me as if he was just terrified of the power that imagery could have. Instead of seeing Artist as mainly manipulators in our era, I see artist as visual catalogers of our existence.
I agree with most of plato's defintion of art. However, I do not believe fantasy or idealization of art can corrupt reality. Art should be used as a tool to represent past, present, and future. Art should not only be restricted to what is, but also what things can be.
"Art is mainly skill, clever manipulation of paint or stone or in our era the film or digital media."
I think this statement is important. I feel this way because while we can get caught up in the philosophy and meaning of art, but ultimately much of it just comes down to skill and craft. It is a clever manipulation of the talents we are trained in and is a product. While it is nice to get caught up in meanings and reasoning, I think that to the average viewer, art is admired for the skill and principles behind it.
I don't believe it is so terrible for art to mimic reality. It's part of the sensory experience-- a realist style can wow us with how closely it resembles real people or things, and it's the same case with modern video game technology. There are cases where people with weak minds are at the mercy of art's influence, but I believe any negative effect is not the fault of the art itself.
Plato's philosophical ideas/issues of art, I think only touch the surface of what art can do and be. Each idea mentioned is agreeable, but to a certain degree. Fantasy, though not a fantasy artist myself, but is overstated in my opinion, because it is a form of pure imagination. People tend to misuse/abuse the ideas mentioned, where it can be too much about skill, or just stuck in a fantastical world. Our society today has a lot of 'negative influences' because people tend to abuse/misuse consumption. Too much of something is never good. There are points to Plato's argument on art, but one single idea cannot stand alone, its a bit of everything.
-Eunjung Lee
I like the idea that Art is to complex for most people (and Plato) to understand or gain anything from. Its as if Plato had never tried to participate himself, only observing others make things taking notes as if there is something that he was missing. And he was.
He understands the power of music because music is interactive, he could physically feel the rhythm. Where in other types of art it is a much more subtle, the rhythm and emotion are no longer living, all that is left is a still recorded, witch requires a different sensory insight to decode the value and meaning.
I imagine Plato today wandering around MOCA of the TATE modern with his jaw on the floor, astonished at the objects that are now considered art. I also wonder what he would think of other time based media such as film or video installations, would he feel it had a more direct connection to the soul, such as music. or would the ideas be lost to him.
As for art being clever manipulation of paint or stone, isn't philosophy just the cleaver manipulation of words into ideas.
Plato's ideal is right on key in relation to how art can easily manipulate, influence, and expand how people think for better or worse. He would definitely have strong opinion on how design media is incredibly influential on society through consumerism, however designers are very aware of their ability as well. There is a big movement/feeling within design that we should only be working for things that benefit humanity other than consumer or capitalistic projects. I also think that it is unfair to call imagination/emotion based art, art at its worse because it does not have a logical view. imagination and fantasy are areas that we can find new ideas and even be able to understand abstract concepts such as love, which some argue is in no way logical. I don't think that the majority of art or artist have a poor philosophical standing, maybe just not the same formulaic or logical standing that Plato had.
I find it fascinating that Plato had such strong views about realism and fantasy in art. If he believes that realistic and fanciful art both have negative effects on the audience, then what is considered "good" art? As an animator most of what I do is considered fantasy, but every good animator knows that in order to create believable characters or stories we must reference real life. This can include people, animals, physics or anything else in the real world. This being said, I am left wondering does a fantasy piece that mimics real life still have the negative side effects described by Plato?
Samantha Willson
I believe there is such a wide variety of art and different purposes for it. Although not every piece is created with an intent to have some deeply profound message, art is interpretive and what you get from a single piece is going to be different for the next person. I do not believe a successful work of art is ground entirely on talent, but a well rendered work will be pleasing to the eye for its ability to capture representation. I believe the fantasy aspect of art is an exciting aspect of art, because it allows the viewer to indulge in surrealistic imagery that pulls you into their made up world. I don't believe it "corrupts the logical operations of the mind," but encourages the artist to think past the world he lives in, and apply their skills and talents to make up their own. Symbolism is both intentional and comes across unintentionally, and that can be found in realistic portraits to surrealistic landscapes. More than hidden symbolism in a piece, I believe every work has a certain emotion or feeling, and if the viewer can go away with some type of emotional reaction, that piece is successful, no matter the style or imagery.
I agree with Heather that fantasy is, "simply a way to explore the limits of an idea."
Some scientists say that dreams were initially a survival mechanism for playing out and practicing survival tactics. While dreams have evolved past stalking prey, they still revolve around exploring ideas and scenarios, tangible and intangible. If fantasy art is a way of letting the brain consciously do this through a visual medium, then it is not illogical, but a reflection of human intelligence.
I enjoyed reading what Plato had to say. I like the notion that beauty and art and music tie into the soul when we experience them. Our expressions of art, or our "mirrors of reality" as Plato calls them, can be cause for great connection between us in presenting human experience. "Good music moves the soul to balance and joy" I love this statement and it's true of all kinds of art and beauty, not just music. But also "good" is a term that can be interpreted differently to everyone. But that's part of the beauty of it: not that we agree what is good music or good art, but that we are collectively moved by something.
though i don't agree with some of his ideas and issues i do find it very interesting. Especially this quote:
"Music of all the art forms moves most directly out of the soul and follows the souls inner rhythms it therefore can calm the soul if the motions are complementary to the operations of the soul and has a beneficial influence on society at large if more Classical in nature."
I think he said it beautifully. Music has the ability to move you and bring up many different kinds emotions. Either good or bad the presences of music can be very cathartic if not healing.
It's interesting to see Plato's views on art and my logical side has to agree with most of Plato's views especially when it comes to music and how it is able to calm the soul but my artistic side wants to disagree with how little credit Plato gives to artist wether they draw from life or fantasy. He seems to be stating that either way they are the wrong forms of art but we as artist are able to see in our day to day the beauty around us in order to create from our life or imagination.
Paige R
Art is Art. In my opinion, you can call whatever you’d like art. As soon as you call it art, it is art. Good art? ...that is in the eye of the beholder. “Art is mainly skill” –assuming by skill you mean realism...I’d would have to disagree. I would dub purely “skilled” art as having no real skill at all.
Art is poor philosophy and best philosophy. Philosophy is both poor an best Art. Good and bad exist in all genres: People, Music, Art, Philosophy. For example, Some people think Justin Bieber is best music while others think it is poor music. Some people are “poor” (bad) and others are better, then some are best, but only according to personal taste.
I am so impressed with this chain of dialog. As a whole each comment adds real content to our take on Plato. Having said that what is remarkable is that some of you have clearly grasped other unstated ideas of enormous importance in this Platonic reflection process.
For instance: Fikriye in her commentary brings up one of the most famous aesthetic examples in the history of philosophy--"Plato's Cave" and I hope you all will read what she has so beautifully outlined for us. If shows some of the dangers of art and also of second-hand takes on truth. Taking the news media alone for our facts for instance or what one author or thinker alone says about the world rather than doing some of our own reasoning in the light of the sun. The sun for Plato is the light of truth his "Pure Forms". (more later on that)
Then another remarkable insight: SiSi in her comment offers a counter argument on the shadows on Plato's Cave wall--- on the power of dreams (shadowed whispers) to reveal hidden truths to the conscious mind of its less conscious operations--essentially the Cave of Plato seen through Karl Jung or from the prophecy perspective of the Old and New Testaments of the Bible with Joseph, Daniel any other Biblical persons who have receive knowledge in dream forms.
So the upshot of this for us all is to review all of the comments here and see the various worldviews they point to and then to see why Aristotle in the next installment Part 3 of the history will provide us with the integration we need of the 8 or so points of Plato.
Aristotle will give us even more insight into the complex power of aesthetically charged art with suggestions on how to harness and guide our uses of it.
Again, I am so appreciative of what you have all contributed to this discussion!
Bill
"philosophy at is best is excellent art." I thought that this quote was very interesting, but I did disagree a bit with Platos view on art. I also, like many of my class mates do not view fantasy as a threat on the human mind.
According to Plato, art is a crude imitation of nature that is distorting our sense of reality. I disagree with this idea because I believe that reality itself is often deluded and experienced relatively different from person to person. Because of this, art can allow us a means of seeing and experiencing different sides of the world by looking through multiple lenses. However, as you mentioned Dr. Havlicek, the danger arises not in the authorship but in the assimilation of these varying perspectives. I think it is our responsibility as consumers in society to educate ourselves to the things that most influence our lives. In the same way we learn to read and interpret books, having literacy in the different forms of new media we encounter I believe is imperative in today's day and age.
This really struck me, and I really related to Platos statement that "Art is at its worse nothing more than a mirror of reality, passive and unmediated sense experience alone. " I feel this is very true. Paintings that are identical to life bore me and make me ask " why not take a picture". Now this doesnt mean all still lifes or paintings a f people bore me, if an artist has a style to there realistic pieces it brings more intrest to me as a viewer. Now if an artist sits there for hours trying to recreat a photo real piece of art to the point where theres no soul, no emotion, just dull, then to me its nothing to marvel over no matter how good it may be.
Dear fellow seekers after truth. I want to thank each one of you for adding such thoughtful comments on this posting.
As we wrap it up and move onto Aristotle (who took all of Plato's worries about art and wrestled with them) we will come to admire Aristotle for not stopping with an easy rejection of Plato but looked in some new places for fresh perspectives and insights.
He found what he was looking for as we shall see and history has benefited from his wisdom on art and aesthetics.
Bill
Post a Comment